[Wisdom Tettey] So I grew up in a place where people worked really hard but they didn't necessarily have a leg up, right? And so you had this understanding of the fact that people's life circumstances are not necessarily a result of any deficit on their part but that they are products of the structures within which they operate.

[Maydianne Andrade] I am Maydianne Andrade and from the University of Toronto this is The New Normal

[Wisdom] Inclusion has always been part of the environment in which I've grown up.

This is Wisdom Tettey, vice-president of the University of Toronto, principal of the University of Toronto Scarborough, and also a professor of political science and critical development studies. Wisdom's life began in Ghana. His international experiences have shaped his views on citizenship.

Okay, I'm going to push you a little on the idea of inclusion because today is this historic day. We're sitting here discussing this on Inauguration Day. And althoug a lot of us are looking south with just horror and for some of us we're looking south with rage. To what extent can we think about what's happening, um, being not just the result of white supremacy, but also arising from fear. From fear of some parts of that society of white people who've not been able to see themselves move forward in the way they want to because of the way things are structured there.

[Wisdom] inclusion comes from, you know, having to start with an acknowledgement of inequity, right? Because that is what challenges you to look at whether or not what we profess to be as societies. Because if you look at written documents, they look like perfect expressions of what we want to be. And that is when, you know, the U.S. keeps talking about, you know, working towards a more perfect union. You know, people focus on the perfect, but I think it talks about the inadequacy of what we have now and the need for us to then think about how do we try to continue to, you know, approximate that perfection. And that requires that those founding documents that we appeal to without being critical about them, because those founding documents in the States itself have embedded in them inequities. And so the acknowledgment of imperfection and the responsibility we have as citizens to continue to make things better becomes part of our mandate and our responsibility, right, as citizens. And it seems to me that, that process of growth from acknowledging that there are ills in our society, we are not perfect. And moving as to an understanding of how those ills have created inequities and divisions, and then using that as a basis then to say, how do we heal by making one another better? Right? And, and those are conversations that are sometimes uncomfortable, but are necessary.

[Maydianne] Seeking to understand those with whom you disagree is not apologizing, but it is essential if we are to move forward. The temptation to vilify, the temptation to ignore context is strong. Understanding is not apologizing.

[Wisdom] And so going back to your point about the divisions in the United States, for example, I would argue that racism is not just a white and Black thing, and there's an important reason why we talk about anti-Black racism because Blacks also face racism from racialized communities, right? And so, even within the group of people who are on the margins, there are differences there, and there are, you know, different kinds of discrimination. And I think this is where the point you raised comes in, that in the U.S. there are a lot of people, say, in Appalachia, who have a lot more in common with their compatriots who are in the inner cities and suffering, because they're all socioeconomically marginalized. But their, you know, kind of phenotypical characteristics have been elevated to a point of pride and ascendancy, and then the very things that should in fact, bind them with their other compatriots to fight for what is more to their common benefit gets lost, right? And so they operate in this world where, you know, the victim narrative is very narrow in terms of, you know, your race and these people are taking something from you. And people always look at, you know, the idea of giving to others or restoring, fairness and equity, as taking away. And so if you listen to some of the folks, you know, who were part of the insurrection, there's a sense of loss and that loss is attributed to the fact that other people are in fact being brought up to what should in fact be the base of that perfect union. The expectation for everyone. So I think, you know, so we lose the opportunity to build a bigger tent, where our shared needs and our shared responsibilities come together to make us better. And we operate in these narrow confines. So until we transcend that, these divisions will continue to be there.

[Maydianne] So, I mean, and that, I agree that's back to that concept of citizenship, but also understanding your different levels of responsibility. So clearly as citizens of Canada, um, some of that discernment has to be employed when we vote. Some of that discernment has to be employed when we think, at the local level, what am I doing with respect to the health orders and where are our numbers? So how do we, how do we deal with that, the constant need to be monitoring self-interest versus public good. I feel like the pandemic has taught us something.

[Wisdom] Right.

[Maydianne] And do you think that we will be able to carry it through, into our everyday life afterwards?

[Wisdom] You know, certainly that is my hope: that we learn. But there are days when you are reminded that we haven't learned, right? And you know, so if you take even some of the simple things like wearing masks, and people look at it in terms of their own vulnerability. And if I don't feel vulnerable, then it doesn't matter what happens to other people, right? And, and, you know, citizenship has to have an other-facing dimension to it. It just doesn't have to be me, right? As we latch onto rugged individualism, which is a hallmark of, you know,

[Maydianne] North American life and capitalist society,

[Wisdom] We should understand that, you know, um, our very survival is dependent on others and recognizing then that when we help one another out, we help ourselves as individuals. We can all get out of this sooner if we all work together, either it's by wearing our masks or it's by helping other parts of society get the vaccines in the order that makes the most sense, right? So that I'm not jumping the line. If we do that, it will, we'll be able to get out, we'll be able to help address some of these things better than we currently do. So I think if we begin to look at these things in terms of the good of the collective, then we'll do our part to, you know, to, to be able to get there, right. But not everybody has the luxury of that. And so I think being very careful that we're not overly judgmental on people who may not be able to get out of, you know, do the things that we may be able to do, right. And, and that is how we've always worked as a society. Some help others, others help some depending on where we are positioned and we're all differently positioned.

[Maydianne] The pandemic has shown us how interconnected we are. Recognizing that we have not reached those aspirations yet is the first step. When a citizen looks at their reflection, they realize they need to see the others who help them reach the mirror.

[Donald Trump] We're going to walk down and I'll be there with you. We're going to walk down to the Capitol.

[Maydianne] What do you think are the lasting effects of Trumpism, the laying bare of selfishness at a national level, in a way that we have not seen before I think in North America? And do you think that the, the effects that you've talked about, the positive things have come through the pandemic can help us offset those?

[Wisdom] Just looking at the Capitol today for a lot of people who, have always pointed to the United States as this kind of model of, you know, modern democracy, it looks to me like what I've seen during coups d'etat right, where you have troops, you know, on the streets, and you feel like you are in this war zone, right? Both sides are armed. Exactly, exactly. Right? And so this is such, you know, a profound moment, not in terms of something that elevates, but something that, uh, I think, as sobering, right? About how a democracy can degenerate, uh, because I think it's going to take a lot to rebuild the trust in institutions. It's going to take a lot to build trust in one another. Um, you know, Americans are walking around very nervous and suspicious of one another.

And I think that that is going to take a while to, to, to get over. And the new presidency is not necessarily going to transform that because these things have deep-rooted seeds in people's, you know, historical evolution from setting fundamental beliefs that, you know, Americans tend to think they've transcended, and, and it's interesting when, even here in Canada, we talk about "That's not who we are," right? In the States: "Oh, that's not who we are." Well, that's who we are. Right? It actually is who we are and that's what we're seeing, that's why it's so disturbing. Yeah, right? You know, so it's sometimes very deceptively comforting to talk about "This is not who we are," just so that we can focus on the other things, but this is fundamental to who we are. It goes to my point about recognition as a fundamental prerequisite for making the changes that are necessary.

Because if we gloss over this and say, "Oh, this is not who we are." You know, this has been growing for a while, right? It's not surprising to a lot of observers of the United States that they are where they are. And I think in Canada, we also kind of lull into this comfort about, it's the United States and, you know, we're not like them. But you know, these things, sometimes are subterranean, they're happening beneath the surface, and the gloss is just this much deep, right? And so...

[Maydianne] Attitudes don't stop at the border. Right.

[Wisdom] Well, exactly right. And, and this is where the media comes in, because a lot of things, we saw an emergence of this in Europe, right? With a lot of right-wing groups beginning to get some ascendancy. And it looked like this was Europe. It was happening way on the other side of the world. Well now with media and so on, people have their beliefs reinforced by others. It has positioned them really well. They have access to material that, again, reinforces their own beliefs and so on. So it's going to be, this has worked for me. Critical media literacy is important, particularly in a world where information is flowing all the time and the notion of fake news, (because if it's not my kind of news then it's fake) instead of interrogating critically and learning from it. And so we have to continue this process of learning. That enables us to unlearn certain things that we've come to invite or accept as true and have the humility to challenge ourselves and to be willing to let go of things that have no basis. And that is one of the hardest things for people is the ability to grow. And part of that growth is for you to accept, you know, your mistakes, learn and be able to be a better version of yourself. It takes all of us doing our part and continuing to challenge ourselves, to learn, to reach out, uh, to get into spaces that we're not comfortable with. And as an academic institution, we talk about the importance of our students being global citizens, right? Because it allows them to be challenged. It allows them to learn. It allows them to get outside of what they're comfortable with. And through those interactions, we then learn, we grow and hopefully become better versions of ourselves for the benefit of the collective, as opposed to the self.

I am Maydianne Andrade. This is The New Normal.